What it Means to be Human in the Age of AI

This transcript was created using AI tools and is not a verbatim, word-for-word transcript of the episode. Please forgive any errors or omissions from the finished product.

Courtney: [00:00:00] What does it mean to be human in the age of AI? How will we coexist with the plethora of AI tools that are being unveiled every day? And are you ready for a new bedtime story from Jimmy Stewart to lull you to sleep?

Hi, I’m Courtney Baker and this is AI Knowhow Podcast from Knownwell, helping you reimagine your business in the AI era. As always, I’m joined by Knownwell CEO David DeWolf, Chief Strategy Officer Pete Buer, and Chief Product Officer Mohan Rao.

Courtney: We also have a great discussion with Christian Madsbjerg, the author of Look: How to Pay Attention in a Distracted World. But first, the news.

Courtney: Pete Buer joins us as always to break down some of the latest AI headlines and how they apply to your business. Hey, Pete, how are you?

Pete: I am good. Courtney, how are you doing?

Courtney: I’m [00:01:00] doing good. Our first story this week comes to us from the Verge, Open AI COO thinks AI for business is over hyped. The article is a summary of an interview that Brad Lightcap did with CNBC, where he said, among other things, I think the over-hyped aspect of AI is that it in one fell swoop can deliver substantive business change. What’s your take on this whole debate?

Pete: I’ve noticed lately in the articles and in the press. That it’s kind of trendy to be skeptical of AI all of a sudden. Like you’re smarter if you’re contrarian, right? We know that trick. Taylor Swift was just made Times Person of the Year, so it’s time for us to. Make our lists of all the things we hate about her.

Right?

So, um, but it’s a little bit weird when open AI leadership, uh, is being contrarian and it makes you wonder, [00:02:00] um, why that might be. Like,

Courtney: Yeah,

Pete: expectation setting now? Because they actually have to deliver on the things they’ve been promising for the last six months. Like, no, no, this will not happen overnight.

Right? And, uh, uh, or maybe our.

Courtney: like, it would be like if Taylor Swift created her own list of reasons not to like Taylor Swift.

Pete: Um, I have a friend who thinks it’s because, uh, chip deliveries aren’t coming fast enough and they can’t, they can’t keep up. But maybe I’m being contrarian myself. Let’s not do that. Um, let’s just think for a second about why AI for business might not happen overnight. Well, gosh, it’s kind of straightforward, right?

Like. If you are meant to sort of fundamentally change the way business gets done in, uh, your company, it might take a little while that, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s, it, it requires rethinking processes and the mix of technology and human and it only makes sense that change management like that takes some time.

And I think also we, we don’t have the faintest inkling of some of the most exciting applications coming from [00:03:00] AI, yet they’re all still being built somewhere in someone’s garage or they’re a twinkle in someone’s eye. So this will surely take some time, but make no mistake back to the notion of what should listeners be thinking?

If you’re not out there educating yourself, experimenting and starting to make plans, you will be left behind.

Courtney: I think this is really interesting and for everybody listening, I think it’s worth reading these articles and really seeing exactly what he says for yourself. So if you haven’t signed up for our newsletter, this is a great time to do that. You can do it at knownwell.com. Pete, next up, since it’s beginning to look a lot like Christmas, I couldn’t help but ask you about this one. It comes from the New York Times and the headline reads, can’t Sleep. Listen to the AI generated bedtime story from Jimmy Stewart. I love this so much. Stewart was of course the star of It’s a Wonderful Life, and the sleep and meditation app Calm has used AI to develop a brand [00:04:00] new bedtime story using his voice, even though the actor passed away in 1997.

Pete, again, humor me on this one. Is there any takeaway here for business leaders?

Pete: So first, I, genuinely think this is a wonderful thing. Um, the focus on wellbeing, the use of a beloved cultural icon. And most importantly, as you read the article, gaining authorization, from the, the family and the licensing organization to use the voice like all done. Right. You know, it’s, just great.

And you can pretty instantly come up with the next 50 ideas along these same lines, right? Like I’m imagining cameo on AI steroids where recently departed Eddie Van Halen is doing a shredded rendition of the birthday song for me come October. Like, uh, and I think that’s the way to engage business leaders in this question is, you know, look to the business, think about creative and different [00:05:00] ways you can engage your audience. Run an experiment, get out there with it, and then the next 50 ideas will follow. Most importantly, do it ethically. Make sure that the Stewarts and the Van Halens get, get paid. and I should add at the end here, given the wonderful life reference, everyone should remember, no one is a failure.

Who has friends?

Courtney: Such a good reminder. Pete, as always, thank you for being with us.

Pete: Love it. Talk to you, Courtney.

Courtney: As a nod to the holiday season we’re in today, we’re doing something a little bit different. David, Mohan and I are talking about what it means to be human in the age of AI. This is a bit of a precursor to a great conversation we’ll have later in the episode.

David, Mohan, welcome to the show.

David: Hey, Courtney. Hey Mohan. Hey, Mohan. I don’t know [00:06:00] about you, but um, if you have noticed the first few episodes, Courtney would actually tell us what we’re talking about, and then here recently there’s like no warning. I, I’m, I’m like nervous that we’re getting further and further along and all of a sudden we’re gonna get a curve ball someday.

Mohan: Yeah. We don’t know what we are talking about today.

Courtney: Today might be considered a curve ball because usually we are talking strictly about business and AI. And today I wanna talk a little bit about the humanities.

David: The humanities. Okay.

Courtney: Yes, yes. So we, uh, we mentioned this in a recent episode. We’re at a conference and there was a big debate actually in the entire room about what makes us different from.

David: Uniquely human.

Courtney: Uniquely human. I think this is a really interesting conversation to have with business leaders because we are stewarding people, the people that [00:07:00] make up our organizations. And so as we talk so much about AI and its implications on business, I think we also need to flip that coin and talk about what makes us uniquely human in this moment.

It feels we need to do both. And so today I’d love to toss this out to you, David. You have a blog post on this topic

David: Hmm.

Courtney: But how do you think we weighed into this as business leaders?

David: Yeah, I do think it’s a fundamental question and, and if you step back and listen to the AI conversation, one of the things that strikes me and really intrigues me. That for quite some time, the business world has not been focused on the humanities, right? Both business and education have all been about stem, right?

Science and technology and math, right? Um, and that has been the focus of our development. I. All of a sudden with the advent of AI, we hear a [00:08:00] lot more conversation and questions. Maybe not as poignant as your question of what makes us uniquely human, right? Which is very much a humanistic approach to that conversation.

But there’s conversation about ethics, there’s conversation about morals and the impact on people of this technology in a way that frankly, except for a couple of, I won’t call ’em fringe, but small movements like the conscious capitalism movement and things like that just for some time have been.

Backburner and not part of the everyday every business conversation, but that has really crescendoed with AI and I think it’s because what we as human beings have always thought about our unique value, right? Of, oh, we are great at memory and logical deduction and that’s just not true anymore, right? We are not different that way.

Um, and it is begging the question, what is unique [00:09:00] about us as human beings and how are we different than machines? And everybody can feel the difference, but we haven’t developed the concepts that are age old aristo concepts around humanity. And I think that’s coming back into the picture, and it’s part of the social debate around this technology.

Mohan: Yeah. You know, on this topic, I really like a George Lucas, Kurt quote, right? So he said, the sciences tell you about the how, but the humanities tell you about the why, right? So that to me, kind of frames it so, well, why are we here? Why do we believe what we believe? Those sorts of things only can come from humanities.

David: Hmm. I love that quote. I’d never heard that before. Uh, Mohan, one of the things that that makes me think about is when I think about. The fundamental difference with a human being. We as humans can know and be known at a very deep personal level. I. Right. And [00:10:00] that is fundamentally unique, that consciousness, right?

That ability to love, that ability to be aware of and not just computing, right? and I, I think you get to the essence of that with that question. Like why, why might AI be powerful and help us to advance as human beings? ’cause it gives us more space to do what is uniquely human, which is to know and to be known.

How much more do we need this in this world? We’ve actually gone in the different direction with social media, right? We became more digital. Everybody was afraid we’d becoming less humans. If we capitalize on this moment, we have the ability to leverage AI to actually help us return to our roots as human beings.

Courtney: We should also note here that what you just described is part of the reason that our company is called Knownwell.

David: Fair enough. And so you set me up. Well, thank you for asking a question I could actually answer. It’s a passion. [00:11:00] Hmm.

Courtney: So during this time of a lot of change, this new transformational technology coming on board, how do we practically in our business start to lift up the things that are uniquely human, the things that be replaced with any part of this technology? What does that look like in our businesses?

Mohan: Yeah. If you think about why this is super important in the business context, even as a direct benefit, critical thinking from knowing the subjects that we are talking about, the communications comes from the, uh, the depth in communications comes from this. The personal credibility that you can establish comes from this.

They don’t come from the hard sciences, but it comes more from the, uh, being human, being vulnerable, being, uh, uniquely suited to deal with the people and, uh, and [00:12:00] make the change happen.

David: I, I think that leads to a frame that I’ve been thinking about a lot, Mohan, which is, um, I think that the agents that we create from AI are going to be more than skilled at helping us to manage our businesses, but they will. Ultimately fail and be horrible at leading our businesses. And I think just like we have lost a little bit of the focus on the humanities, um, versus the sciences, I think also we have got caught up into the science of management versus the art of leadership. And I think one of the very tangible things that leaders can do is to really think about that difference as we’re setting up AI to manage our businesses more and more. We recently talked about the operations of business and one of the five different altitudes, right? These machines will absolutely help us to manage our businesses, but leadership is the art [00:13:00] of motivating and inspiring the human person. Right? You talked about vulnerability, Mohan. Um, vulnerability is one of the tools, right? To show that we’re all human. We have weaknesses that actually endears people to us, right? Um, communication is another point that you brought up. Again, a leadership tool. Um, how do we tell stories? How do we inspire the human person? How do we get people to buy? In this essence of being known, if, people know that you care about them and that you know who they are and they’re being heard, they’re more apt to follow you. Right. So yes, machines can help us manage our business.

They can help us to be smarter. They can’t do that. They can’t inspire people. They can’t help you build those relationships that will allow you to lead the organization through this change and into the future. And I think that’s something that that leaders can do is focus very deliberately on their leadership.

Mohan: Yeah, exactly. The machines are really good at pattern [00:14:00] recognition. some point, they’re gonna be smarter than humans when it comes to those sorts of problems. But when it comes to areas around being versatile, being insightful, able to connect the dots that are not easily connectable, those are all, will remain the realm of human intelligence for the longest period of time.

At least that’s my belief.

David: I totally agree with you.

Courtney: I do think it’s also helpful to be very cognizant of the things that are uniquely human so that we can elevate those things, especially if you have knowledge workers that a lot of their skill is being replaced by a technology. How do you for that person, that human lift up, the part of them that is unable to be replaced and celebrated and taking really intentional moments to do that, I think can go a long way as we lead.

David: [00:15:00] Absolutely. It’s critical to leadership.

Courtney: I’m not sure where this question might take us, or even if it’s a good one, but it is the holidays right now, and I do feel that gap between a human and a machine and AI feels pretty big at the moment. There’s a lot about the holidays that just don’t make sense to a machine. The fact that, you know, you might put up Christmas lights and moving an elf around your house does, it doesn’t make any logical sense. It doesn’t…

David: I’m not sure that makes logical sense to me either that that whole elf thing, but that’s all right.

it, it, it’s a good question though because I, I do think it’s relevant and these are the things that make us uniquely human, right? Culture is absolutely a human thing, right? It is not a computed thing.

Faith, right? At the core of these holidays, right? No matter what faith [00:16:00] you are, the different holidays that we have in our faiths come from. Culture and faith. Right? And, and faith is a belief in things unseen, right? And so there is an element of humanity that lives in these holidays that I think is really, really important and can be a reminder to us.

Right? That’s what I would love to see is let’s. As we are living in this new AI age, let’s remember what makes us uniquely human and just like leadership and management, the reminder that both are important, right? One harnesses the power of humanity. The other one unleashes the power of humanity. Same thing as we’re going through the holiday season.

Let’s understand that, that faith and science are not at odds, but they are both two different sides of the coin and they compliment each other. And the human part of these aspects of our lives is really, really important. Enrichens us and helps us to live fulfilled happy [00:17:00] lives.

Mohan: And the holidays for me, the best part about it is that there is time for self-reflection.

David: Hmm.

Mohan: And you’re running hard all year and you do slow down at the end of the year during the holidays and that moment of self-reflection. These are the important things to be thinking about. What is humanity? What does it mean to you?

What does it mean for others? And how can you do good in the world?

David: It’s also a time of family, right? And that goes back to being known in that connection, right? I hope that every one of our listeners takes time to, to spend time with their loved ones in this holiday season, not their machines, right? And, and I think that’s important is to go connect with people and those that matter to us.

Courtney: Well said. I hope this has been a helpful reminder to you as an executive in this exciting moment of AI transformation, of being very cognizant of how we lift up the humanity within each other. Mohan. David, thanks for joining us.

David: Thank you.

Mohan: Thanks, Courtney. Thanks [00:18:00] David.

Courtney: What do you get for an executive who has everything for Christmas? I’m asking myself that all the time right now. Uh, no more cashmere sweaters, by the way, who is getting a cashmere sweater from their employees? Uh, it sounds like a pretty nice gift, uh, but you probably don’t need another one.

Oh, you know what? I bet they would love to have in their proverbial stocking a link to a free AI assessment they can take to show how their company is doing with their AI preparation. So go ahead, send the URL to your favorite executive. It’s knownwell.com/assessment. Christian Madsbjerg is the author of Look: How to Pay Attention in a Distracted World. David and I had the [00:19:00] privilege of seeing him speak at a conference earlier this year and we were riveted. And I was thrilled when he agreed to come on the show and talk about the intersection of humanity and technology

Pete: Christian, welcome. It’s such a pleasure to have you on the show.

Christian: Thank you. Thank you for inviting me.

Pete: I’d like to start with a little bit of context. You recently published a book. I was placing my Amazon order, uh, earlier in the week, and, uh, as I, I read the review, I. I think it was by way of Penguin. Uh, paying attention is a critical human skill, yet many of us have forgotten how to listen carefully and observe intentionally, delusion by social media, hobbled by the increasing social isolation.

It fosters. We need to rediscover the deeply human ways we connect with others. Tell us about the book and, and what compelled you to write it.

Christian: So I, I wrote two previous books on attention, but primarily on how to analyze, so [00:20:00] the analysis of data input. Uh, that can be used to understand how other people pay attention. This was more a book, this is a philosophical book. You could say what, what is attention in the first place? How do people, use it?

And is it different than machines? Like, are we different than machines or dolphins or, you know, asteroids? Um, and in, if we are, then how and what does it mean? So it’s about seeing. Uh, at the most basic level. So seeing color, distance, shapes, um, and so on, and how we that ends up as this meaningful world that we inhabit.

Pete: David and Courtney, uh, recently attended an event at which you were, um, uh, keynoting or speaking, um, and the focus was, um, discussion of that which makes us truly human. Can you share with us, for those who weren’t in attendance, uh, what, you know, what was the punchline and, and what is the [00:21:00] important takeaway for folks listening?

Christian: Well, it is that we are still, other than machines, we are still different from machines so, um, Google or DeepMind made a machine, um, that is based on neural nets, and it had the machine teach itself go. And run scenarios. I mean, millions and millions of scenarios playing against itself. And by doing that, it can predict, it cannot predict anything, but it can play, uh, at a level that beat a savant human, you know, otherworldly excellent goal player.

Um, and, and, and quite convincingly, uh, beat him. And there was a sadness. Uh, when that happened because it’s, you know, it’s a big deal, particularly if you come from China or South Korea, or you know, far east there’s a sadness that machines now are better, but, [00:22:00] but. Are they though? I mean, the, the question is, is it even playing or is it just processing information, um, at a level that we can’t even imagine?

Interesting about that is it was done with technologies that are quite different from who, from the technologies that won against Kasparov in the nineties. it was done through neural nets and neural nets are. Um, extraordinary breakthroughs. They’re, they’re mysterious in a sense how, just like the human mind is mysterious, um, and we don’t understand how it does it.

But the, but saying that then that means that it’s either a humanlike intelligence or some sort of God seems to me like otherworldly God that, um, you know, some, some sort of robot overlord is. Overinterpreting, the moves as creative in the human sense of creative. You know, if you take the 37th move. That move [00:23:00] could be seen, could be experienced as creative, truly machines being creative. But if you think that way, you misunderstand that it’s just maths, it’s just vast data sets and maths, and it couldn’t care less about the move.

Uh, it’s, it’s, um, exquisite in the, if you, if you know how to play, go, it’s an exquisite move,

Pete: Mm-Hmm.

Christian: But only humans can understand that it’s exquisite and creative. So, if you are a business leader or if you lead, you know, a hospital or a, uh, you know, a government agency, the end user, understanding the people.

That you serve come from a machine that doesn’t have the kind of creativity and interpretation abilities that we have. So humans are out of fashion right now, but I, I, I project just like short pants or long pants. Uh, we’ll, we’ll be [00:24:00] back because you’ll see the limits. You’ll see the, the amazing upsides, but you’ll also see the limits and you’ll see how we are overinterpreting.

Right now, this distinction between human being other than machine stands in my, in my experience or in…

Pete: Nice.

Christian: Of, that’s, that’s what I think about it.

Pete: Yeah. So Christian, as you, uh, I think know this is, uh, a holiday episode, so I wonder when you think about AI and humanity and the connection to the holidays, what comes to mind?

Christian: There is something about basic categories like space and time humans, that it is three o’clock at pretty much the same time every day. But sometimes it feels like it’s early or sometimes it’s experienced as very far away, even though it’s very close by. The same with space here and yonder here and over there can be far or not so [00:25:00] far, depending on the human experience.

Now the same with, you know, the holidays there. There’s just a time that’s different. There’s a time that feels different, is experience different, has a, has a warmth to it, has a humanity to it than any other day. Spaces that have that too. So if you, if you walk up the stairs to the Supreme Court, that’s just, you could say that’s just a, um, that’s just feet.

Or meters, but it’s not, it’s experienced quite differently. So, so the same goes with time that humans just experience time and space and distance and color and uh, and shape quite different from, you could say the scientific or the natural science description of it.

Pete: Yeah. Beautiful.

Christian: An hour is long or an hour short, you could say, well, it’s an hour.

Or you can say, actually, it’s actually the case.

Pete: Yeah.

Christian: or

Pete: Yeah. It’s, and it’s important that it feels that way. Yeah.

Christian, I wanna say a, a very special thank you. It’s, [00:26:00] um, been an honor to have you on the show and no small irony. That’s, um, the distinction you draw around that which makes us uniquely human, involves emotion and caring, which. Show up both, um, in your words and in how you, um, deliver them. So, thank you so much.

Christian: Thank you very much.

Pete: All the best. Thank you.

Courtney: That’s it for today’s episode. As always, thanks for listening and we would really love it if you would go rate review and maybe even better share this episode with another executive. As always, we like to ask one of our best AI friends what they think about this episode’s topic.

So Bard, what do you think about what it means to be human in the age of AI? What do you think it means to be human in the age of you?[00:27:00] And now you’re in the know. Next Monday is Christmas, so we don’t have a regular episode of the show coming your way. But check your stocking. We’ll be gifting you the full interview with Christian. Be so be sure to tune in. And happy holidays.